Don Matzat Debates Louis Sheldon About Benke on O'Reilly Factor
Comments by Rev. Jack Cascione

 

Wallace Schulz, Lutheran Church Missouri-Synod's Second Vice President, suspension of Atlantic District President David Benke for participating in an interfaith service in Yankee Stadium has become national news.

On July 10, 2002, FOX's Bill O'Reilly invited Rev. Donald Matzat of the LCMS to speak in favor of Benke's participation in the Yankee Stadium event. Presbyterian millennialist, Rev. Louis Sheldon was invited to speak in defense of Wallace Schulz's decision to suspend Benke.

The transcript below was taking from a VOICE recording of the O'Reilly Factor Program, Wednesday, July 10, 2002. We believe it is at least 99% accurate. As in interviews of this nature, the participating individuals would interrupt the person speaking and it becomes very difficult to separate the comments. In some areas we could not transcribe and it is shown as "......"

Bill O'Reilly - BOR - Host of the O'Reilly Factor
Don Matzat - DM - Pastor in Pittsburgh, PA and friend of David Benke
Lou Sheldon - LS - Presbyterian minister, in Washington and President of the Traditional Values Coalition.

We pick up Bill O'Reilley's opening remarks here...

BOR - ..Wally Schulz "Benke is joining with other pagan clerics in a inter-faith service. This is an extremely serious offense against the God of the Bible." Rev. Benke joined the prayer service in New York. There were also Catholics, Jews, Muslims and Hindus and if he doesn't apologize to the Synod, they may fire him.

Joining us now from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania is Don Matzat, a Lutheran pastor and a friend of David Benke's and Presbyterian Minister, Lou Sheldon in Washington, the President of the Traditional Values Coalition.

O.K. now. Rev. Matzat, you talk to Benke all the time and is he repentant here? Does he feel he has done anything wrong?

DM - They have accused him of religious syncretism, which is the blending together of various religious beliefs and traditions. But the question is. "Was the Yankee Stadium event religious syncretism?" I mean is Rudy Guiliani the great religious syncretist of the 21st Century calling these people together? I mean, were the Jews saying they agree with the Muslims, and the Muslims agree with the Hindus and the Hindus are acknowledging the God of the Christians? Bill, this was not syncretism. This was a unity around the hurting City of New York where these clerics came together and spoke to their various constituencies. This produced no syncretism of religions. I mean - heavens, what are we going to do, accuse Rudy Guiliani of promoting sinful syncretism and accuse George Bush of promoting sinful syncretism by hosting the event in a national cathedral? This was not syncretism, it was an opportunity for David Benke to stand up on national television and to offer a prayer in behalf of hurting people in the precious name of Jesus.

BOR - That sounds logical to me Rev. Sheldon, where are we going wrong here?

LS - Well, I think the first thing you have to understand is that syncretism is a very, very bad thing. I happened to watch this, I can't remember if it was on Fox or on which of the channels when it took place on that day in, right after 911. I came away from that showing, it was about 45 or 50 minutes that I watched it, with a very bad feeling, even myself.

BOR - Really?

LS - So when I heard this, yes you see, we call it in political terms ": mush." It was somewhat of a big tent. This is kind of trying to do in theology a big tent. Then you really end up having "mush" and the big tent crashes down on you. So, I support the Missouri Synod's policy that you really should not be advocating or promoting this kind of experience, you know, with Christianity.

BOR - I am not getting it though Rev. Sheldon. Here, I mean look. First of all it is healthy on two fronts.

#1 - It brings all of the religions together in a show of solidarity. It is charitable thing that we are praying in our own ways, in our own individual ways to a deity for the families of the victims. It seems to be a very positive and patriotic thing to do. Am I wrong?

LS - No, you are not wrong. And that is a hard thing to come against, and I certainly would grant that point because of 911 and because of my deep and moving in my own spirit after 911. But, I think what the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church has the policy. And you've got to understand their policy, if you have to understand their theology; you have to understand their whole history.

BOR - And their policy is, "you can't pray with anybody else unless they think exactly the way you do."

LS - Well, it is what came across that day. I tell you. The feeling I got from it, was this "mush" feeling....

BOR - Look, I know there was some grandstanding there, and I am not going to mention any names. But that is secular. I mean, the prayers to me were positive. Am I wrong here, Rev. Matzat?

DM - Are we going to suspend a man from the ministry of the Lutheran Church because somebody got a feeling? I mean, are we operating this thing on subjective feelings. Syncretism has an objective definition to it. What syncretism was produced? Now, Lou Sheldon of Conservative Values, is he saying that George W. Bush, our conservative Republican President, pro-life, promoted religious syncretism when he hosted the National Cathedral event?

LS - That is a horse....

DM - Please let me finish. That is far more a sin than anything Bill Clinton did.

LS - That is a horse of a different color. Billy Graham preached. You had a Pentecostal - this was all within the context of Christianity. You had.........

BOR - You had a Rabbi there - and you had Jews there.

LS - May I finish? You had Bill Graham preaching a phenomenal sermon; you had a Pentecostal Methodist minister from Houston, who the President has known. The President had a very STRONG - non-syncretism thrust there. You can't take Jews as a part of the problem of syncretism, because the Jews and the Christians are right there together because of the Old and the New Testament. But there is a point that separates them, but it isn't a point that divides us.

BOR - Look, I am not getting any of this. My religion, Catholicism says, I can pray with anybody. When I study the Gospels, Jesus prayed with everybody. Tax collectors, prostitutes, I mean, he was praying with everybody. So, I am not getting what this is based on, at all.

LS - Well Bill, this is an issue of not wanting to pray. I will pray with Buddhists. I will pray with Hindus. I will pray with anybody else.

BOR - So what's the deal, what's the problem?

LS - Listen, you hit the nail on the head. That day turned out to be something that was very, very bad.

BOR - Why was it bad?

LS - Not in terms for showing respect for those who had been killed by the Terrorists. No, no, no. It was bad because of the grandstanding and what...

BOR - That's the something that everybody makes an individual thing of. I more worried about theology. Now I am going to give you guys 20 seconds each to wrap it up. But, I will tell you my opinion and then we will go to you Rev. Matzat and then we will go to you Rev. Sheldon. 20 seconds, please.

Jesus was inclusive, and religions that exclude in my mind are not charitable and not following Jesus. Rev. Matzat, go.

DM - I am not about to give up my convictions and join in the circle and sing "Kum ba yah." There's things I believe. There are truths I hold. I do believe Jesus Christ, Bill, is exclusive But, when I am operating in the civil realm, when the major of the City of New York, not the Dali Llama, the mayor of the City of New York pulls together a gathering, and I am a part of that city, I have constituents in that city, I would be foolish not to be there praying.

BOR - O.K. I've got it. Rev. Sheldon, wrap it up please.

LS - Jesus Christ said, "the way is narrow. You shall take it." Jesus very clearly set the standards, I think we have to elevate Him as Lord and Savior as Christians and not get ourselves taken up with those....

BOR - I think He likes the Hindus. I think He thinks they are O.K. Thanks very much gentlemen, we appreciate it.


Rev. Jack Cascione is pastor of Redeemer Lutheran Church (LCMS - MI) in St. Clair Shores, Michigan. He has written numerous articles for Christian News and is the author of Reclaiming the Gospel in the LCMS: How to Keep Your Congregation Lutheran. He has also written a study on the Book of Revelation called In Search of the Biblical Order.
He can be reached by email at pastorcascione@juno.com.

July 10, 2002